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PROUD PAGAN

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A Reply To "An Open Letter from Religious Leaders"

Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:39 PM EST
us-news, marriage, human-rights, freedom, liberty, homosexual, redefinition, stateism
By Proud Pagan

IN REPLY TO:

Marriage And Religious Freedom, Fundamental Goods That Stand or Fall Together

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An Open Letter from Religious Leaders in the United States to All Americans, Released January 12, 2012

---------------

A religious group has released a letter expressing their concerns over the matter of same-gender matrimony, a.k.a., gay marriage. Like many other assertions made by certain religious groups which are aimed at creating social policy and/or legal reform, it is rife with subjective rhetoric, half-truths, and outright lies. This reply serves to expose those deceptions.

The promotion and protection of marriage—the union of one man and one woman as husband and wife—is a matter of the common good and serves the wellbeing of the couple, of children, of civil society and all people. The meaning and value of marriage precedes and transcends any particular society, government, or religious community. It is a universal good and the foundational institution of all societies. It is bound up with the nature of the human person as male and female, and with the essential task of bearing and nurturing children.

As can be seen here, this is nothing more than a personal opinion, expressed in such a way so as to imply an authoritative source. Upon closer examination, however, the flaws of these statements become readily apparent.

First, to address the claim that a “one man and one woman” marriage is, “...a matter of common good.” There is no academic or authoritative information, evaluation, or study of any kind which indicates that allowing same-gender marriages has a negative affect on the community, the city/town, or society as a whole. This is simply a deceptive assertion being perpetuated by the opponents of same-gender marriage.

Second, that opposite-gender marriage, “...serves the well-being of the couple.” The concept that an opposite-gender marriage is inherently healthier than a same-gender marriage is demonstrably false. In the distant past, it was far more common that homosexual men and woman would enter into an opposite-gender marriage, purely for the sake of convenience or appearances. According to at least one published medical study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7346553) as many as half would ultimately end in divorce. This can only serve to show that homosexual individuals who are compelled into a heterosexual relationship are anything BUT healthy, and in fact, has contributed to the very-high incident of divorce in this country. Indeed, can one honestly believe that a relationship which maintains a limited ability to express full and honest emotion is healthier than a relationship which maintains an honest expression of affection on all levels?

Third, that opposite-gender marriage serves the well-being, “…of children.” An article in “Medscape Medical News,” examined the results of 15 different academic studies which examined the lives of children born and raised in same-gender parent households. Those studies universally determined that children raised by homosexual parents are no better, and no worse, than those raised by heterosexual parents.

To continue, the letter states, “The meaning and value of marriage precedes and transcends any particular society, government, or religious community.” I might appreciate the irony of this statement if it were not so clearly contradictory and arrogant. These religious leaders declare marriage to be beyond the purview of any subset of society or culture, but then go on to define it and ascribe limitations based on their own personal opinions. The intellectual dishonesty of this is staggering.

As religious leaders across a wide variety of faith communities...

There is no “wide variety of faiths” being represented here. The faiths being represented are Evangelical Christians, other Conservative Christians, and Orthodox Jewish. The variety of Episcopal, Angelican, UCC, Quaker, Unitarian/Universalist Christians, etc., as well as many non-Christian religions, which either support or consciously asserts no opinion in the matter, are clearly not represented here.

…we join together to affirm that marriage in its true definition must be protected for its own sake and for the good of society. We also recognize the grave consequences of altering this definition. One of these consequences—the interference with the religious freedom of those who continue to affirm the true definition of “marriage”—warrants special attention within our faith communities and throughout society as a whole. For this reason, we come together with one voice in this letter.

As I said before, for a group which claims, “The meaning and value of marriage precedes and transcends any particular society, government, or religious community,” they are very insistant on being the only group which understands this “true definition of marriage.”

Some posit that the principal threat to religious freedom posed by same-sex “marriage” is the possibility of government’s forcing religious ministers to preside over such “weddings,” on pain of civil or criminal liability. While we cannot rule out this possibility entirely, we believe that the First Amendment creates a very high bar to such attempts.

There is no honesty, nor intellectual honesty, in presenting a claim of a potential problem while simultaneously admitting that it probably won’t be a problem. This is simply a “red herring,” and speaks to the lack of candor of these religious leaders.

Instead, we believe the most urgent peril is this: forcing or pressuring both individuals and religious organizations—throughout their operations, well beyond religious ceremonies—to treat same-sex sexual conduct as the moral equivalent of marital sexual conduct.

Again, this group presents a “red herring.” There is no example, history, nor precedent, which indicates that any religious organization will be forced to accept a social policy with which it disagrees. When abortion, birth-control, surrogate motherhood, etc., were declared legal, no church in the country was bound or coerced into changing its position or doctrine where such issues were concerned. To claim that religious freedom would be compromised by a civil policy, which places neither compulsion nor restriction, is utterly dishonest.

There is no doubt that the many people and groups whose moral and religious convictions forbid same-sex sexual conduct will resist the compulsion of the law, and church-state conflicts will result.

Again, the compulsion of which they speak does not exist. To allow same-gender marriages is to remove a restriction from a subset of society. There is neither requirement nor compulsion of any kind for churches to accept or acknowledge a marriage which is not consistent with their own religious philosophy.

These conflicts bear serious consequences. They will arise in a broad range of legal contexts, because altering the civil definition of “marriage” does not change one law, but hundreds, even thousands, at once. By a single stroke, every law where rights depend on marital status—such as employment discrimination, employment benefits, adoption, education, healthcare, elder care, housing, property, and taxation—will change so that same-sex sexual relationships must be treated as if they were marriage.

This is nothing more than an outright expression of discrimination. These religious leaders have stated, herein, that they support the “right” to discriminate against homosexual couples, and that the inability to do so will have a negative effect on society.

That requirement, in turn, will apply to religious people and groups in the ordinary course of their many private or public occupations and ministries—including running schools, hospitals, nursing homes and other housing facilities, providing adoption and counseling services, and many others.

The religious leaders who presented this letter are also asserting the belief that people should have the right to impose their religious and philosophical beliefs in the course of civil and occupational duties. In other words, if same-gender marriage becomes legal, it should be allowable for a town clerk to refuse to issue a marriage license, since it is opposed to their personal belief that gays and lesbians should not marry; that student enrollment can be adjusted or refused if the student has same-gender parents; that adoptions can likewise be refused; etc., etc. Again, this is nothing more than attempting to justify gender-preference discrimination.

So, for example, religious adoption services that place children exclusively with married couples would be required by law to place children with persons of the same sex who are civilly “married.”

Adoption services are governed by Federal, state, and local laws. Adoption is not purely a religious function. If a “religious” adoption service has a problem with conforming to the law, then they should not be in the adoption business.

Religious marriage counselors would be denied their professional accreditation for refusing to provide counseling in support of same-sex “married” relationships. Religious employers who provide special health benefits to married employees would be required by law to extend those benefits to same-sex “spouses.” Religious employers would also face lawsuits for taking any adverse employment action—no matter how modest—against an employee for the public act of obtaining a civil “marriage” with a member of the same sex. This is not idle speculation, as these sorts of situations have already come to pass.

The same conditions apply to each of these examples; business and civil duties operate under the jurisdiction of the law. Yes, many of “these sorts of situations” have come to pass, and in every case, the discrimination was found to be illegal and/or unconstitutional.

Even where religious people and groups succeed in avoiding civil liability in cases like these, they would face other government sanctions—the targeted withdrawal of government co-operation, grants, or other benefits.

For example, in New Jersey, the state cancelled the tax-exempt status of a Methodist-run boardwalk pavilion used for religious services because the religious organization would not host a same-sex “wedding” there.

The property in New Jersey was not tax-exempt for religious reasons; the property received its exemption under the “Green Acres Program.” The truth of the matter can be found here: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/18/nyregion/18grove.html

San Francisco dropped its $3.5 million in social service contracts with the Salvation Army because it refused to recognize same-sex “domestic partnerships” in its employee benefits policies. Similarly, Portland, Maine, required Catholic Charities to extend spousal employee benefits to same-sex “domestic partners” as a condition of receiving city housing and community development funds.

A business is not a church, nor is a church (under legal definitions) a business. If a church is going to own and operate a business, it must do so within the confines of the law.

In short, the refusal of these religious organizations to treat a same-sex sexual relationship as if it were a marriage marked them and their members as bigots, subjecting them to the full arsenal of government punishments and pressures reserved for racists. These punishments will only grow more frequent and more severe if civil “marriage” is redefined in additional jurisdictions. For then, government will compel special recognition of relationships that we the undersigned religious leaders and the communities of faith that we represent cannot, in conscience, affirm.

Again, the church was never compelled to acknowledge the status of same-gender couples, but in no way does this allow a church-owned business to practice discrimination. The operation of a business is not a religious function, no matter how it is rationalized. Any and every church can discontinue the ownership and/or operation of a business, and continue to remain a church. Any and every business can be sold from a religious ownership to a secular ownership, and continue to be a business. The two are clearly and demonstrably mutually exclusive.

Because law and government not only coerce and incentivize but also teach, these sanctions would lend greater moral legitimacy to private efforts to punish those who defend marriage.

Purely rhetorical. The law is the law; it does not promote itself as “greater moral legitimacy.”

Therefore, we encourage all people of good will to protect marriage as the union between one man and one woman, and to consider carefully the far-reaching consequences for the religious freedom of all Americans if marriage is redefined. We especially urge those entrusted with the public good to support laws that uphold the time-honored definition of marriage, and so avoid threatening the religious freedom of countless institutions and citizens in this country. Marriage and religious freedom are both deeply woven into the fabric of this nation. May we all work together to strengthen and preserve the unique meaning of marriage and the precious gift of religious freedom.

The only “religious freedom” which has been addressed throughout this letter has been the “right” to discriminate against same-gender couples, based on the philosophies of their own personal religion. This letter promotes their “religious freedom” over-and-above occupational protections, occupational benefits, the ability to adopt, the right to government benefits, and so on. In short, they demand legislation be based on religious philosophy, rather than fundamental rights or the Common Law.

And now, to elaborate on the “unique meaning of marriage” that these religious leaders don’t want you to know.

Throughout the history of western civilization, extending back to Roman and Greek culture, and likely into pre-history, marriage had always, and exclusively, been a private matter. It had been governed by, if anything, only local laws or local customs. Here is a key point, which the religious leaders of the aforementioned letter would certainly prefer to leave unknown: until the 16th century, there was neither a law, nor a religion, which defined “marriage” on a federal or national level. NOT ONE. It was not until the 12th century that Catholic priests began ingratiating themselves into the marriage ceremony, but until the mid 1500’s, the majority of marriages, including those among Christians, were little more than Common Law marriages.

During the 16th century, as part of the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther affirmed that marriage was “…a worldly thing…that belongs to the realm of government.” Thus, marriage remained a purely secular practice. However, in 1563, in a Counter-Reformation effort, The Council of Trent declared that marriage was a sacrament, and that only a marriage officiated by a Catholic priest, and attended by two witnesses, would be considered a “legitimate” marriage. Nonetheless, non-Catholics were still free to marry under the terms of a Common Law Marriage. This continued until England passed Lord Hardwicke's Marriage Act of 1753, which gave the Church of England full authority over marriages. Some eighty years later, The Marriage Act of 1836 would be passed over the entire UK, reinstituting a civil marriage, and eliminating the requirement of a religious element for a marriage to be considered lawful.

Lord Hardwicke's Marriage Act had no effect on the American Colonies, where Common Law marriages remained lawful. In fact, at no point in the history of the United States has there been a legal requirement of church recognition for a marriage to be considered lawful.

Thus, marriage is, and always has been, a civil and societal function. That religion has been able to infiltrate the institution is a poor rationalization for it to be able to redefine the institution according to its own doctrines.

-finis-

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  • Public Discussion (54)
Proud Pagan

I have to review Newsvine's CoH and User Guidelines, and hopefully, within the scope of those rules, I can send this directly back to the authors of the letter, and perhaps some other news agencies.

I'm entirely sick of religious institutions using lies and deceit to further their own agenda, and not having to answer for it or be held to a higher standard of truth and honesty.

Please, everyone mind the CoH. I fully plan on being stricter on this column than I've been on some of my previous articles.

Kindest regards

  • 24 votes
Reply#1 - Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:48 PM EST
gordy327

Awesome article Pagan! :)

  • 11 votes
#1.1 - Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:29 PM EST
RAC 0129

Wonderful piece! Clipped to my column. I do fear the thumpers will foist themselves on your article. Hope I am wrong but I see the bible quotes flying fast and furious against the "scourge of the homosexual lifestyle." (Whatever that lifestyle is.)

  • 9 votes
#1.2 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:25 PM EST
daMamma

I dislike that phrase "lifestyle". As it suggests a "choice", and we know that being GLBT is not a choice.

  • 8 votes
#1.3 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:56 PM EST
Proud Pagan

I do fear the thumpers will foist themselves on your article.

I have my suspicions as well, which is why I posted the caveat "I fully plan on being stricter on this column..." The opposition may speak to the honesty (and lack thereof) of their claims, and the history of marriage, and little more.

I dislike that phrase "lifestyle".

I understand, and it's a very pertinent point to raise; gender preference is a state-of-being, not simply a choice or lifestyle.

Still, from time to time, we may need to distinguish between a gay/lesbian individual choosing to live a gay lifestyle, as opposed to a gay/lesbian individual choosing to live a heterosexual lifestyle (such as an example in the article). I believe we know each other well enough that we can avoid most misunderstandings. :-)

Kindest regards

  • 8 votes
#1.4 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:43 PM EST
Dennis Kemmerer

RAC 0129 wrote:

"scourge of the homosexual lifestyle." (Whatever that lifestyle is.)

I've been asking that for going on three decades.

The answer invariably boils down to a homophobic fabrication based on a prurient obsession with others' genitals.

  • 11 votes
#1.5 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:40 PM EST
notsojingo

The answer invariably boils down to a homophobic fabrication based on a prurient obsession with others' genitals.

As those promoting this fabrication are often caught tapping their feet under bathroom stalls, opening Pray Away the Gay Clinics or taking secret vacations with their boy toys!

Ironic does not begin to cover the hypocrisy...

  • 8 votes
#1.6 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:55 PM EST
Reply
Grisham

Great article Pagan. Im from Canada where gay marriage is legal and has been for some time. it has no effect on me, anyone I know or society at large. Religious bigotry is still bigotry and needs to be opposed for the steaming pile of crap it is. You did a wonderful job of doing that with this article.

  • 23 votes
Reply#2 - Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:25 PM EST
Proud Pagan

Thank very much, Grisham, that means a bit coming from you. :-)

Kindest regards

  • 15 votes
#2.1 - Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:35 PM EST
caballojoe

Proud Pagan, excellent handling of the material with flawless truth and logic. I live in Canada and would like to share an anecdote, briefly. I live in a rural area with a fairly conservative population, mostly descendant of Scottish, Irish, and British immigrants. There was a lesbian couple, married I think, on my curling league. They recently had to move out of the immediate area for employment reasons. However, they wrote a letter to our community which was published in the local paper. I'll paraphrase what it said:

When we were moving into your area, working with an out-of-town realtor to find a place to live, we were told that we might not be well-received by the community because of the conservative nature of the population there and our status as a same-sex couple. However, as it turned out, nothing could have been further from the truth. We were welcomed and made to feel very comfortable and very much included as friends and valued citizens of the town. We are moving away with heavy hearts and we will miss you all. We are so proud and pleased to count you as our friends, and we shall always be yours. Thank you for your grace, your generosity, your friendship, and your neighborliness. We will be back to visit.

So this appears to be the conflicts, the serious consequences, and the threat to religious freedom of which they spoke in the Open Letter from Religious Leaders.

  • 17 votes
#2.2 - Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:37 PM EST
Proud Pagan

Caballojoe, that is wonderful. Thank you for sharing. :-) One could only wish to live in such a neighborhood.

Warm Regards

  • 10 votes
#2.3 - Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:17 PM EST
Reply
MYOB-1251250

Basically all their arguments boil down to one thing, they don't like it. Sorry, that's not good enough.

  • 18 votes
Reply#3 - Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:22 PM EST
hugh b

Nice article.

It should be noted that religious leaders were responsible for the Inquisition, the genocide in the New World, and the persecution of jews.

The lengths, which those in any religious bureaucracy will go to, to maintain their devotion to dogma and their imagined influence on their constituents and the world around them clouds their ability to be rational.

The world being round is a physical fact. The lies they tell about marriage and same sex relationships are fantasies that will be much more difficult to disprove. These are the same people that have to belong to something to explain their existence because it is too difficult for them to comprehend otherwise.

  • 11 votes
Reply#4 - Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:23 PM EST
agagnu

I have only one question to ask of those (men mostly ) who are anti gay for the reasons that they give,

When you have sex do you simply have a straight in and out ? if NOT, I.e., you do oral anal six/nine , you are more "perverted' and obscene and there is no difference from a gay couple. In effect, the two-women relationship is the most wholesome as they do not poke each other, oral or anal and their relationship is more gentle and less' messy.

  • 9 votes
Reply#5 - Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:10 PM EST
js-445607

Religious leaders often abuser their power for their own personal biases. They find this perfectly acceptable in that they think they have a hotline to God. It is their perversion that is the problem not that of others. Until more people realize that many use religion to backup their personal agendas, we'll simply need to keep chipping away until they question this approach. Great article, Proudpagan.

  • 11 votes
Reply#6 - Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:10 PM EST
john-482021

Religious leaders and preachers need to be taught something else in their brainwashing training to become a judge and minister that the Bible is not all about weird sex. There are other things in there that need to be talked about in church also unless your church is full of ignorant perverts who think of nothing but gay sex and demand that it be the subject each week. End the endless cycle of fake christianity and become real christians.

  • 11 votes
Reply#7 - Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:26 PM EST
js-445607

Your post gave me a good laugh and imagery, John, thanks. I imagined one of those sign boards outside the church announcing the sermon of the week. It should have a little suggestion box next to it just in case the preacher needs more titles for his pervert sermons.

On a more serious note, religious leaders certainly need to make an attempt to talk to their congregation (stop "preaching")about understanding what their fears are, if they are founded and forget about thinking some things in nature are nasty. It isn't benefiting anyone to harbor such ideas.

  • 9 votes
#7.1 - Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:21 PM EST
Reply
Uthaclena

Despite my religious upbringing - from which I have largely recovered - I always recognized that marriage was substantially a practical matter; it is not about authorizing particular kinds of sexual acts, or giving some sort of holy blessings to reproduction, or even (as a large portion of gay activism would have it) allowing people to express their love and affection. It is mostly about regulating property, inheritance, and the rights and responsibilities of access to "authorized family members." From this point of vie, it matters not a bit whether there is religious authorization; whether the married partners are of opposite, or the same gender; or even whether it is a relationship solely between two or more members.

It is a public, social contract governing these sort of practical exchanges. The hearts and flowers and spiritual blessings are all very nice, but if the legal provisions for exchange between the partners is not supportive, it is largely an ineffectual show.

  • 13 votes
Reply#8 - Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:28 PM EST
Gene-340754

Proud Pagan, I have no problem with gays marrying, but it is traditional that marriage is between a man and women. That being said, times have changed and traditions seem to be tossed out everyday. I do have one bone to pick with you. Why do you think your opinion is more meaningful than those you take issue with??? It is like Atheism and Christianity, one should not impose its will on the other. It is all about freedom of choice. However, I do believe that if an amendment were put to a vote, gay marriage would go the way of the ERA for women and not garner the 3/4s of the states to pass it. And clearly this is my opinion. But as I said at the beginning of this post, I take no offense at those choosing the same sex. I, on the other had, was happy and content to have had my wife for 45 years before her passing in 2010. I am neither too liberal or too conservative, like Ron Paul, I believe in freedom of choice.

  • 1 vote
Reply#9 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:08 AM EST
Proud Pagan

I do have one bone to pick with you. Why do you think your opinion is more meaningful than those you take issue with???

Where, within this article, have a stated an opinion?

It is like Atheism and Christianity, one should not impose its will on the other.

I agree.

It is all about freedom of choice.

On this I also agree.

My only issues, as stated within the article, are that religious groups are making dishonest claims of damage to society to justify their opposition to the issue, and are claiming that marriage is the "property" of the church, when history and empirical facts prove otherwise.

Kind regards

  • 9 votes
#9.1 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:26 AM EST
Grisham

Why do you think your opinion is more meaningful than those you take issue with???

One is based on facts and one on blind assertions.

Every argument an anti-gay person can put forward can be shot down easily using science and logic. It's not a matter of opinion, any more than realizing that hatred of black people is wrong because it's unreasonable, illogical and based on blind assertions.

Proud Pagan, I have no problem with gays marrying, but it is traditional that marriage is between a man and women. That being said, times have changed and traditions seem to be tossed out everyday.

Yes, just like we tossed out that tradition of keeping African Americans in chains based on skin color.

  • 10 votes
#9.2 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:27 AM EST
brianfromPA

Gene, this is the main difference between the religious groups and those of us on the outside of them. Those of us on the outside believe everyone can choose their way of thinking and to live the way they wish to. These religious groups wish to make law that EVERYONE will have to abide by.

I believe these groups are entitled to shun those that they don't agree with, but they are not allowed to make us all live their way just because they think it is the right thing to do.

  • 5 votes
#9.3 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:27 AM EST
Gene-340754

Grisham, slavery is one of the issues that our founders failed to address. The Preamble states all men are created equal, but the founders in order to create our Union weren't persaudive enough to tackle it head on. They allowed Southerners to insist that slaves weren't men, but then added them as 1/5 to increase their votes. It was wrong then and not supported by our Constitution. As in WWII, certain races were targeted for annihilation, which shows the arrogance of men. Those decisions made in the 18th century haunt us to this very day with race relations. I don't consider owning people to be a tradition but an immoral and illegal activity. I agree with Brian that choice is what it's all about and I do have a problem with religious groups pushing their agenda on others.

  • 3 votes
#9.4 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:52 AM EST
Dennis Kemmerer

Gene-340754 wrote:

it is traditional that marriage is between a man and women. That being said, times have changed and traditions seem to be tossed out everyday.

"Times have changed" long before today.

It isn't all that long ago that "traditional marriage" forbade interdenominational and, more recently, interracial marriages.

  • 9 votes
#9.5 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:46 PM EST
Gene-340754

Dennis your post is true, but even when races were shunned from marrying outside their race, they still considered marriage between a man and women traditional. As for marriage being forbade, you can go back to the failure of our founders to make all men and women equal. Religious denominations do have a lot of archaic rules/laws. The New Testament of Christ is more spiritual and far less critical of races and relations. I am a Southern Baptist, but I believe that Christ made our individual souls his temple and taught us not to Judge others, however, there are evangelicals who will never preach the New Testament without tossing in the old laws of the Jews. It is a disgrace that almost every major religion hates the others, especially when they claim that their God teaches love over hate. You then realize that man can ruin anything he touches. I also don't believe that any church or religion, union, party, or anyone should tell me or anyone else how to vote and who to vote for. As said previously it is all about CHOICE.

  • 2 votes
#9.6 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:48 PM EST
Dennis Kemmerer

Gene-340754 wrote:

Dennis your post is true, but even when races were shunned from marrying outside their race, they still considered marriage between a man and women traditional.

Yes, and like the ridiculous religion and race restrictions before it, the equally absurd sex restriction is also gradually being eliminated.

  • 7 votes
#9.7 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:02 PM EST
exltcusa

Gene, in the interest of truth, the Preamble to the Constitution does NOT state that all men are equal. As Herman Cain discovered, it is actually part of the Decleration of Independence.

Tradition is not a law. Tradition is not morals. Tradition is not values. Tradition is a guide of what worked in the past. Tradition is modified when tradition no longer matches the facts.

To others, one of the real issues of those that insist that we follow their "traditions" and "customs" as they apply to personal behavior is the personal hypocrisy that these people practice. Whether its adultry and divorce, like McCain and Gingrich or greed and arrogance like Santorum and Perry, the worst example is Strom Thurmond. Remember how Strom was the Dixiecrat candidate for the Presidency in 1956 and enveighed against the Federal government's invsion of the privacy and the sanctity of the family through the Civil Rights Act of 1956? Strom broke four different South Carolina laws in the 1930s. He committed statutary rape on a 16 year old maid. He had sex with a women of color. He commited adultry when he did it. He got her pregnant and she had a mixed race child. He then hid this child away until after his death. So much for the party of family morals.

  • 5 votes
#9.8 - Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:01 PM EST
Reply
warrior wheatman

If there is to be a distinction: Marriage is acknowledgement of legal accountability to society; Holy marriage is the commitment to the laws of the sect's community.

Religious freedom means the ability to discriminate within the sect's community -- not outside of it.

Many sects are antisocial, in that preferential treatment allows them to be closed communities.

  • 6 votes
Reply#10 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:46 AM EST
Uthaclena

warrior wheatman

Religious freedom means the ability to discriminate within the sect's community -- not outside of it.

Hmm... food for thought, there. Just how unrestricted is that in the U.S.?

Obviously snake handling is allowed, but as far as I know, only one specific group has gotten legal approval to use psychedelic drugs during religious ceremonies. There are, of course, periodic legal battles between life-saving medical support for minors and parental religious beliefs. I'm not sure to what degree animal sacrifice is considered legal. I'm pretty sure that "temple prostitution" is prohibited. What about "coming of age" genital mutilation? I think most of us would consider some Muslim ethnic traditions toward women illegal; I believe it's technically a capital offense in some Islamic cultures to try to leave the Muslim faith if born into it; we certainly wouldn't allow that to get away.

On the other hand, if the Catholic Church wants to excommunicate a member who is to have violated the tenets of their faith, so be it.

  • 3 votes
#10.1 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:16 AM EST
notsojingo

I think most of us would consider some Muslim ethnic traditions toward women illegal; I believe it's technically a capital offense in some Islamic cultures to try to leave the Muslim faith if born into it; we certainly wouldn't allow that to get away.

I would only note that taking physical and illegal harmful actions falls into another category entirely. One that IS punishable by law.

But I certainly get your point of question/argument. I think...

On the other hand, if the Catholic Church wants to excommunicate a member who is to have violated the tenets of their faith, so be it.

WHAT?!?! And start a trend??!!! No WAY!!! ;-))

Peace

  • 5 votes
#10.2 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:31 PM EST
Uthaclena

notsojingo

I would only note that taking physical and illegal harmful actions falls into another category entirely. One that IS punishable by law.

Oh yes; the True Believers may call it "honor" or "revenge" or "justice" or what have you, but we know these acts by the legal terms "assault" and "murder."

  • 5 votes
#10.3 - Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:36 AM EST
notsojingo

Though not commonly practiced here in the states, unless you include circumcisions, most any of the "assaults and murders" are prosecuted as such, I believe. And assuming you and warrior wheatman both mean within the US.

Even if the perpetraitors claim "honor, revenge, or justice".

In this country you can do anything at least once, right or very wrong. You may not be allowed to make a habit of it if it is illiegal/very wrong here. But I do not mean to get in the way of your original response to warrior wheatman's

Religious freedom means the ability to discriminate within the sect's community -- not outside of it.

Peace

  • 3 votes
#10.4 - Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:05 AM EST
Reply
warrior wheatman

Thank you Pagan, for standing for our civil right. This article shows, how far we still are from a universal consciousness and acceptance of one-another.

  • 6 votes
Reply#11 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:51 AM EST
Proud Pagan

Thank you Pagan, for standing for our civil right.

One is glad to be of service.

This article shows, how far we still are from a universal consciousness and acceptance of one-another.

Dreadfully so, and even worse, the lengths to which some will go to establish some form of dominance over those who choose to not support said group.

This issue deserves fair and impartial treatment according to the law of the land. Certainly not a summary dismissal by a group with an agenda.

Kind regards

  • 6 votes
#11.1 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:31 AM EST
Reply
ol doc gold

Proud Pagan,

that is one erudite, passionate, well-written, article!

BRAVO!

  • 7 votes
Reply#12 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:22 AM EST
Proud Pagan

Thank you, ol doc. :-)

Kind regards

  • 7 votes
#12.1 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:32 AM EST
Reply
Zen-Hydra

This whole issue should be irrelevant. Governments should not legislate on religious ceremonies.

There should only be civil unions in the eyes of the law, and they should be available to anyone willing to file the necessary documentation (and pay any associated fees).

Marriage is then left to be defined by whatever religion, or philosophy, desires to take ownership of the term.

There, problem solved. Any questions?

  • 7 votes
Reply#13 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:42 AM EST
daMamma

When the laws defining "civil unions" (a term started to note the difference between SSM and OSM) and "marriage" are the same, then the terms can be interchangeable.

As for any religious group, I've no problems with anyone practicing their faith according to their beliefs within the confines of their personal lives. However, when any religious group(s) desire to make their religious beliefs everyone's secular law I have to stand up and fight against it.

Not everyone in our nation is Christian. Not all Christians are the same. Why should all citizens have to follow the religious rules of any particular religious group when not all citizens belong to that particular group?

Our constitution guarantees each citizen the right to religious freedom. To observe and practice the faith of our own choosing. (or to have no religion at all) Our constitution also guarantees that no law shall be made promoting or inhibiting any religion.

It has gotten out of hand with some Christian groups getting some of their religious beliefs made into our secular laws affecting all of us and they will not stop until every citizen has to live according to their particular flavor of the Christian religion.

Excellent rebuttal to the 'stupid' in that letter from religious leaders Proud. Always a pleasure to see facts laid out so nicely.

  • 7 votes
#13.1 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:51 PM EST
Proud Pagan

Excellent rebuttal to the 'stupid' in that letter from religious leaders Proud. Always a pleasure to see facts laid out so nicely.

Thank you very much daMamma. :-)

Kindest regards

  • 7 votes
#13.2 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:58 PM EST
warrior wheatman

Hydra, i'm opting for a civil marriage versus a holy marriage. Civil unions have been concocted to be less than a religious marriage.

Some Christian cults allow only male participation, women can only come sit and sing (and donate). Some advocate cutting the genitals of boys. All are allowed to discriminate -- but not politicise. Equal rights is State law; not religious law.

  • 4 votes
#13.3 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:21 AM EST
Zen-Hydra

warrior wheatman

Good for you. I wish you, and your partner, many years of happiness and companionship.

I am not sure if you are agreeing with my points above, or not.

The government, at any level, shouldn't be dictating anything about marriage.

Marriage is a loaded, and disputed term. Any given religion should be able to define marriage however they choose to.

The government should only be acknowledging civil union contracts. Period. The government would cease to recognize anything called a marriage, and all previous marriage licenses would be converted to civil union status. A civil union would be a legally binding contract that affords all the same benefits that marriage does now, and the only limitations would be those that apply to any binding contract (e.g. mental competency).

The solution that I suggest cleanly removes the issue of civil rights violations that currently exist in regards to marriage.

  • 2 votes
#13.4 - Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:33 AM EST
warrior wheatman

@ZEN HYDRA. Thank you for trying to find a solution whereby your conceived religious marriage retains supremacy. Marriage however means different things in different religions; a lot of them you won't like.

I still see no cause for confusion; other than the seeding of discrimination against other religions.

The civil marriage is a legal construct; acknowledgement of legal responsibilities to partner and society. Anyone can challenge its use for excemption and circumstance, through legal redefinition by the highest court; The basis of DEMOCRACY.

Holy matrimony, or holy-marriage, is religious acceptance of the edicts decreed by the most revered leader of a cult. By design it is decriminatory to all outsiders. Such cults are survivalist doctrines. They are based on knowledge that is ritualised on victorious behavior against all opponents. Their discriminatory practices sets them apart of other sects. Some ban homosexuals, some ban sex outside marriage, some ban women participation, others ban fraternising with outsiders, undesirables, untouchables.

If it were not for Consensus, universal legality, or Pax Romana; a thousand-and-one theocracies would each vie for neuclear supremacy. Under Concensus, each of all religions has the freedom to discriminate within their cult, as a way of life. And with Consensus, each individual can enter a legal construct available to all.

The supposed perspective of Christians would usher-in universal peace -- if they could let-go-of doctrines that discriminate.

  • 3 votes
#13.5 - Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:13 AM EST
Reply
Sammy-2678587

There should only be civil unions in the eyes of the law, and they should be available to anyone willing to file the necessary documentation (and pay any associated fees).

Marriage is then left to be defined by whatever religion, or philosophy, desires to take ownership of the term.

I agree.

  • 6 votes
Reply#14 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:53 AM EST
Jackie-2759125

Great article Proud Pagan. I am hoping, before I die, that the people of this world will finally set aside revenge and petty grievances such as you did such a great job of discussing here. Harm None, Do As Ye Will.

  • 6 votes
Reply#15 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:27 PM EST
js-445607

When all understand we mean no harm and our paths are sacred only to us will fair and balance begin. Live and let live is a great path and offers to open the reality that we will never be just the same only doing what we do and accepting this as the right course. Our personal opinions, while valued, will never be the only opinion.

  • 4 votes
#15.1 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:10 PM EST
Proud Pagan

I am hoping, before I die, that the people of this world will finally set aside revenge and petty grievances...

Would, that such a dream could come true.

Today, some of us are celebrating Martin Luther King Day. In thirty years, much has been accomplished toward rendering racial discrimination obsolete. And yet, much remains the same. Much like you, Jackie, I would pass from this world a happy person if I could see the seeds of change truly begin to take root.

...such as you did such a great job of discussing here.

I thank you, very much. :-)

Harm None, Do As Ye Will

And ever mind the rule of three.

js-445607

When all understand we mean no harm and our paths are sacred only to us will fair and balance begin.

Agreed. :-)

Kindest regards

  • 6 votes
#15.2 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:58 PM EST
Reply
romertDeleted
Gene-340754

You have to understand that I grew up in the South. Southerners are notorious for strict religious beliefs. I have studied my Bible and reached some different conclusions than many strict evangelicals. So I do have a view that God is not this Being that wants people of any race or color to suffer. So I believe it is God who will judge and not me. I can certainly have an opinion about others and whether they are serving God or not, but it is not my job to judge them or anyone else. We tend to be self righteous when judging others and less reflective of our own faults. Now, can I convince others, I doubt it, they aren't open to opposing views and many of you have stated that. I do agree with many of you, however I can't let go of my Faith.

  • 2 votes
Reply#17 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:14 PM EST
Karl-777

This was an excellent read, Proud Pagan!

PROUD PAGAN wrote: “……..That religion has been able to infiltrate the institution is a poor rationalization for it to be able to redefine the institution according to its own doctrines.” The religionist has only one goal, and that is to implement his ”only true” dogmatic drivel as being the “law” of the land, despite the fact that it has been debunked on numerous occasions. They will lie, steal, slander and cheat (all in the name of their “god” of course) in order to accomplish their objective, which is a theocratic state, despite the fact that the Constitution prohibits it.

We will continue to stand up for “Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness” which are the Unalienable/Sovereign Rights of any Human Being on the Planet.

~K

  • 8 votes
Reply#18 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:36 PM EST
Vlad's dog

A well written response PP.

  • 6 votes
Reply#19 - Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:32 PM EST
exltcusa

Consider the following.

There is NO specific comment by Jesus of Nazareth (either the Jewish Prophet, Jewish Messiah or Greek Christ) on the sanctity of homosexuality in any of the Gospels. Paul is certainly against homosexuality, a position probably based on his knowledge of the Law and his background as a practicing Pharisee.

Jesus did have some pointed comments in Matthew (where he is the Jewish Messiah) on divorce. In other words, once married, no divorce. Period. Those that get divorced and have sexual relations or even re-marry are committing adultry.

Now, where it also gets sticky in Matthew, is that Jesus, the Jewish Messiah, states his followers must follow the Law better than any scribe/Sadducee or Pharisee. Now when a Jew says the "Law" we are talking about the Ten Commandmants and the 256 "Do's and Don'ts" in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, where there is a proscription against homosexuality. Of course, anyone that argues against homosexuality from that viewpoint should also be circumcised, eat no pork and only "kosher" and hold the Sabbot (Friday sun down to Saturday sun down) holy. Not to mention worshipping Yahweh and only Yahweh, not a divine Christ or a Mother of God or the Saints.

  • 5 votes
Reply#20 - Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:10 PM EST
daMamma

Of course, anyone that argues against homosexuality from that viewpoint should also be circumcised, eat no pork and only "kosher" and hold the Sabbot (Friday sun down to Saturday sun down) holy. Not to mention worshipping Yahweh and only Yahweh, not a divine Christ or a Mother of God or the Saints.

Okay, now you are just messing with heads by using facts and logic. Some folks don't take kindly to that sort of thing.
: )

  • 8 votes
#20.1 - Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:22 PM EST
exltcusa

If I were gay and someone pulled that Leviticus reference on me, I'd look 'em in the eye and aske them if they ate pork, if they were uncircumcised or if they went to church on Sunday and then say "Take the beam from your eye before you ask me to remove the mote from mine".

  • 6 votes
#20.2 - Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:01 PM EST
Brite

Bravo, Sir.. Bravo!

  • 3 votes
#20.3 - Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:03 AM EST
Reply
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